Mystic vs. Mainstream, with Jay Michaelson
Mystic vs. Mainstream, with Jay Michaelson
Appears in this episode
In this episode, I talk with author, professor, journalist, and rabbi
. After publishing nine other books of nonfiction and poetry, and hundreds of stories for publications like Rolling Stone, The Daily Beast, and New York magazine, he’s just come out with his first work of fiction, The Secret That's Not a Secret.We discuss the nearly 20-year journey behind the writing of this book, and how the tensions between sexuality and religious beliefs in the lives of its Orthodox Jewish characters reflect some of Jay’s own journey.
As an expert on Kabbalah and heretical (historic) figures like Jacob Frank, Michaelson has made a career of carving out a space for mystical imagination beyond patriarchy and heteronormativity.
Finally, we also talk about how writers pick between esoteric and mainstream topics when choosing between book projects, and what current events—including the rise of authoritarianism around the world and the Oct 7th Hamas attacks— suggest about religion and politics today.
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Some of my biggest takeaways from today’s interview
Writing fiction allowed Jay Michaelson to describe experiences and inner states not always accessible through nonfiction.
Michaelson began the first versions of some of these stories almost 20 years ago, and he’s written 8 books of nonfiction alongside the development of this collection.
And though those books deal with many of the same subjects—Jewish mysticism, the interplay between sexuality and religion, and so on—he was able to depict their inner reality in ways that feel deeper or more liberating than he was able to in nonfiction:
I now have written several non-fiction books and hundreds of articles. And that does come very naturally and easily to me. And yet I really feel like…this really is the book I'm the most proud of. It feels the closest to my way of seeing the world, even though it's fiction…And I think a lot of that is that….there's a lot of imagination in this book and that was so freeing.
The book represents Jay's own journey of self-discovery and the evolution of the stories over two decades.
Michaelson talks about the fact that when he started writing these stories, he himself was closeted—not just sexually, but in terms of his ability to be honest with himself about the writing he wanted the freedom to do:
“When I was finishing up college, deciding what I wanted to be when I grew up, there were two main choices on the agenda. My experience of the closet for me was, it wasn't just about sexuality. It was like closeted from all kinds of desires.
And so for me, it was like being an English lit professor or being a lawyer and trying to save the world. And being a writer….that was like the dream that wasn't mine to reach for.”
The book delves into the tension within Orthodox Jewish communities and their potential for spiritual liberation.
Recent American Jewish fiction has featured plenty of Orthodox Jewish characters, but most often these depict people who have left the restrictive confines of their faith.
By contrast, the characters in this collection remain in their Orthodox environment, but are seeking spiritual and sexual liberation:
"[The stories] deal with gay orthodox men who are wrestling, sometimes quite literally, with the tension between their sexuality and their religious beliefs."
By focusing on the sensory details and physical depictions of these struggles, Michaelson transforms abstract spiritual conflicts into immersive experiences.
This book’s exploration of Kabbalistic thought is connected to Michaelson’s previous scholarship on heretical figures like Sabbatai Zevi (1626-1676) and Jacob Frank (1726-1791).
The interview also touches upon Michaelson's broader academic and journalistic work, which considers the significance of Jacob Frank and other heretics who diverged from orthodox religious traditions. It suggests that these historical figures may reflect a desire for a spiritual revolution that could have lasting impacts on contemporary socio-religious dynamics.
“One of the things that Jacob Frank also did was preach a kind of a teaching of liberated sexuality and sexuality as spiritual messianic experience…as a kind of, the world to come, the messianic age, through a kind of spiritualized sexual act or ritual. And that's in the book, definitely.”
This was very much a book Michaelson had to write—but it also made him think consciously about choosing smaller and more esoteric projects versus writing bigger, more mainstream books.
Some of Michaelson’s previous books, such as God vs. Gay, were very much written with a mainstream audience in mind. By contrast, he understood this story collection might draw a smaller readership. The calculus of personal passion vs readership is once again on his mind:
“There are times where I've chosen consciously, that book God vs. Gay was an example, where I chose to write a more mainstream book and I wanted to do something with it with a larger audience and I was lucky I found a somewhat larger audience…
But when it comes time to think about the next book I have to write, which is where I am now…I have one [idea] that I think would [potentially attract] a larger audience, and then there's like the other one that I sort of want to do anyway, even though it wouldn't [attract as large] an audience. And it's such a question of what our creative hopes and ambitions are, I think, as well as financial ones.”
Discussed on this episode
The Secret that is not a Secret at Bookshop.org | Amazon.com | Ayin Press
The Heresy of Jacob Frank: From Jewish Messianism to Esoteric Myth, by Jay Michaelson
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‘Deprogramming" the Trump Cult,’ CNN appearance on how people develop conspiratorial and group-think beliefs... and how they can be coaxed out of them, July 6, 2023.
Show Credits
This episode was produced & mixed by Magpie Audio Productions. Theme music is "The Stone Mansion" by BlueDot Productions.